What are erotic embodiments?
Why should we all consider erotic role models?
How do we embrace and expand pleasure in our bodies?
What are the benefits of learning about gender beyond the binary — personally and professionally?
How can thinking beyond the gender binary lead to more pleasure?
Dr. Lucie Fielding, therapist and author of Trans Sex: Clinical Approaches to Trans Sexualities and Erotic Embodiments, shares her experience, insights, and advice.
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This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Erotic Embodiments & Polymorphously Perverse Playgrounds of Pleasure
You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast, Sex and Relationship advice you can use Tonight welcome to the Sex with Dr. Jess Podcast. I’m your cohost, Brandon. We’re here with my lovely other half, Dr. Jess. Hey, I want to say a big thank you to folks who have been sending in questions and comments, but also well wishes, I guess because we sounds sick or we’ve been saying we’re sick. A bunch of people have written in and I’ve received more questions for the podcast over the last couple of weeks than I normally do. And I promise you we’re going to get to them ASAP and try and get to all of them. I always do my best. I know I can’t address every single thing, but if you did write in, thank you for the well wishes and we’ve got your questions and I promise we are slotting them in to share some thoughts. And oftentimes what I’m trying to do, if you’re wondering why I don’t get to them right away, is I’m trying to find a really good expert who’s perhaps better equipped to address than just the two of us. And I’m excited for today’s conversation. Before we get to it, a reminder about the Hot Money podcast, which I’ve just started digging into. And I mentioned it last week, but I’m happy to offer a reminder again that this is a new series about the porn industry and the money behind it. It is hosted in research by Financial Times reporters, and they started digging into the industry and found that, yes, the performers are bearing at all, but the information about the people and the businesses who run the industry, it’s really hidden away, like it’s some sort of top secret state secret. So on the Hot Money Podcast, their hosts, Patricia Nelson and Alex Barker, they’re taking you as listeners inside the porn industry to uncover who is really pulling the strings. And their reporting reveals a story that goes beyond a single person. It’s really about a bunch of billionaires, tech geniuses, and the most powerful finance companies in the world. Billionaires like sex, too. Billionaires like sex, too. Apparently they want to make some money off of it. They can buy the best sex, I guess. So. Be sure to listen to the Hot Money podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Now. Today we are going to be exploring and discussing erotic embodiments, ethical curiosity, especially for therapists and polymorphously perverse playgrounds of pleasure with our esteemed guest.
Joining us now is Lucy Fielding, a queer, nonbinary trans femme therapist and the author of the book Transsex Clinical Approaches to Transsexuality and Erotic Embodiments, shortlisted as a finalist for the Lambda Literary Awards. That is big news. Congrats to you. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure to be on the podcast. I’m so excited to learn from you. And I’ve already Dove into your book. I haven’t finished the entire thing. But I’m doing a lot of learning. And obviously erotic embodiments is in the title, and you spend a lot of time exploring what that means in the book. And I just want to say quickly, the book is for all people. So certainly it’s relevant to therapists and counselors and anybody working in the field of sexuality. But there are a lot of tools in there that I think are also just relevant to regular folks, really, and they can apply it. So tell us what you mean by erotic embodiments. Sure. So embodiment, I think about two senses of that word when we say that we are embodying. First we think about we are in bodies, that we are moving, that we are experiencing the world through our bodies and experiencing our bodies through the perceptual capacities of our bodies. And then there’s a second sense of embodying, which is that we embody all sorts of images and narratives and scripts. So it’s like when we embody values, for example, when we are the living embodiment of a value or something. And so I wanted to point us towards the various ways that we are in bodies and try to get us in our bodies embracing pleasure in our bodies, because the erotic piece is reaching towards pleasure. Because I think so often when we think about what we’re doing, especially as sexuality professionals, we think about resolving a problem, especially like a disorder. And I want to think about the mere absence of pain or distress or discomfort is not good enough. It’s not even a sufficient condition. It’s necessary. Like we shouldn’t be having painful sex or this kind of sex or sex that is not pleasurable. But I want us to be reaching towards that erotic embodiment, towards having that sense of I am in my body, I am able to communicate what I like. I’m able to claim the fact that I am a being who deserves to have pleasure as part of their sexual lives. And indeed, that that should just be part of our definition of sexual health. That’s such an important piece, because that bare minimum of absence of supposed disorder, our absence of pain or absence of, again, diagnosed dysfunction is a pretty low bar. When we think about this short life we have to live and the vessel being the body that carries us through life. Right. And all the different sorts of pleasure that we can embrace beyond the erotic. Of course, we’re here to talk about the erotic, but you think about the audio, the visual, the goosetotory, just the physical that is nonartic, because we can have physical pleasure that isn’t necessarily sexual. And that’s a real struggle in our culture, because we think of anything to do with the body, anything to do with nudity as inherently and problematically erotic. So how do we get into that? How do we embrace erotic embodiment? Because you talked about feeling deserving and that’s kind of I think a barrier for so many people. You’re obviously talking about trans bodies in your book, but other layers of identity as well. When I think about race, when I think about age, when I think about body type. So what can we do? Is there an exercise we can begin with to take ourselves on our way to erotic embodiment? And you talk about many exercises that can be used clinically, but some of these people can do on their own or with a partner. Absolutely. And I think it first starts with recognizing that our bodies are and I say this all the time in book and my trainings that our bodies are polymorphously perverse, playgrounds of one. They are playgrounds of wonder.
They’re polymorphously perverse, which is to say that our bodies can experience pleasure and access the erotic through so many ways, through so many activities beyond genital or chest tissue stimulation, beyond certain kind of like limited definitions of what sex is or what the erotic is. And so the first thing is recognizing that we are constantly being bombarded with all of these messages, images in the media, and that we get from our families, that we get from our relationships, from the wider culture where we’re told, like, what is sex, what is gender, what is good sex, what is bad sex, what is too much sex, what is too little sex? And that limits us. It forecloses conversations that we might have with our partners. It forecloses the kinds of experiences that we might have with ourselves, with our own bodies because we convince ourselves that we know all there is to know about our bodies and how they’re supposed to work. And this isn’t just Transsex, this is queer sex. This is what we in the kink and leather communities called leather sex. This is crypt sex. This is ways of imagining into what our bodies are capable of, what the erotic is, what the sex can be. And so it starts with just like approaching our own bodies from a beginner’s mind, because whether or not we engage in gender transition, our bodies are constantly in transition. They’re constantly we’re aging, we are acquiring illnesses, we are getting over illnesses, we are acquiring disabilities. We’re going through all sorts of processes. And as we do so, our relationships to our bodies are changing, and we need to recognize that and recognize that joyfully, that pleasure can be joyful, transgressive presence. I love that. I appreciate that so much. So polymorphously perverse playgrounds of wonder is that first step, just that recognition. And then the second piece I’m hearing is that we approach our bodies with a beginner’s mind. That is hard when we’re bombarded with messages. As you say, we also have become familiar with our body’s response, and we’ll take the easiest route oftentimes or the most predictable route. But that always learning approach is so incredibly valuable across the board. And then that celebrating of joy in change I think these can be really challenging. I know in your book you have an intimate justice exercise, and it’s about messaging. Right. And asking ourselves, what messages have you learned in your life about pleasure? How have different people influenced you, from family members to friends to partners to your communities to media? And you ask people to reflect on who are your erotic role models. And this is really interesting because in many parts of our lives, whether it’s fitness or health or wealth or emotional, wellbeing, we have coaches and mentors and people to whom we look up and in the erotic, unless you’re in the field, we often don’t. So I think that’s a really powerful and interesting question. And Brandon, if I can pull you in right now and put you on the spot, as I always do, do you have an erotic role model? Is there anyone that comes to mind? No one that I can initially think of. There are people that I’ve met through your work that have certainly opened and broadened my perspective. Like, I think about Luna, for instance, and different types of pleasure that she’s talked about. I’ve listened to her talk about prostate play and just deconstructing these gender norms. I think what was oh, my goodness. I’m just thinking about what was just said by Dr. Fielding. And I’m sitting here contemplating my own situation because you talk about this idea of your body is constantly changing. And I think when I think about trans sex, I think about transition, and I forget to think about my own transition, my own transition, of just living in my existence, getting older, my body changing sex, changing, all of these things changing. So you assume that it’s trans sex. What am I going to take out of this? That might be the approach that some people think, whereas right now I’ve already been presented with this thing. It’s like your body’s changing, things are changing. How does this impact you? Right.
So I’m sitting here in silence, but I’m also reflecting. You taking notes. Yeah, I’m taking notes. And I’m just like, wow. Yeah. Even recently when we’ve been having sex, things have changed. And it’s not something that I think I consciously reflect on unless I think it’s a problem. And do we not approach that change from a place of fear versus what Dr. Fieldings is saying, which is a place of joy and celebration, and to kind of take it back to your work and to trans sex itself into your book, your work is really asking us to move beyond transnatives that are defined by problems that are defined by fear and trauma and oppression and loss and genitals alone. So I want to know, why is it so important when we think about Transsex either as partners, as allies, as professionals, therapists, counselors, educators in the field? Why is it so important that we learn about transnative beyond the traumatic and the problematic? Well, because I think that one if we are solely looking at communities through a lens of trauma and oppression, that doesn’t leave much room for first of all, we engage in patronizing and minimizing. I remember listening to a podcast interview a few years ago about like, and it was the Gender Affirming Clinician. And they constantly referred to trans folks as those poor people. And I thought, well, yeah, I’ve seen some shit. I’ve experienced some things. Certainly, as the activists and artist filmmaker Twirmalene has pointed out, there’s a trap door to visibility, which is to say that as we become more visible, there’s also violence that rises to meet us. And so we are in the midst right now in so many parts of the world and particularly so many parts of the United States right now where trans folks are at the center of moral panics around. So that’s the first thing. Like, if we’re just simply doing that, then we’re infantilizing and patronizing some folks. We’re also limiting what is possible for them because it’s simply going to be about for us subsistence and survival. And again, that’s not good enough. It’s like pain and distress. It’s not good enough for me. I want us to thrive. I want us to dream. I want all of us to dream. And the other piece of that is that I think that if we are looking at trans joy, if we’re looking at trans erotic embodiment in more expansive terms, what does that open up for these folks? I mean, Brenda, I was so struck by what you said about how you were resonating with the conversation and what was raised. And I think about particularly for CIS men, like, how many ways in which this male sexualities are thought of as so locked in place and so limited. Like, if you don’t have a hard copy that can penetrate something all the time, then something is wrong with you. That’s just not the case. And what opens up when you recognize that you can do so much with a flaccid penis or you don’t even have to have the penis involved. If you have testicles, you can engage in a process, the name coined by Mira Bellwether and Hurzin fucking trans women of muffin where you can be finger banged through your inguenal canals, which are these orifices that are only accessed through the testicles and through that because they’re the orifices through which the testicles ascend and descent. So you can basically use the outer skin of the testicles as a finger cot and follow into the inquinal canal, which is packed with all sorts of Nerf endings. And so like, wow, what happens there if you’re trying that and sex is that can be added to the menu of pleasures. Okay, we have to kind of dive into that. So you’re talking about muffing.
Can you give us I know this isn’t necessarily what you’re doing in your clinical work, but because we’re here and having this chat, can you give us some I don’t want to say instructions, but insights on how to approach that, like with lube, is it on the outside of the testicles? Is it between the testicles? How do you warm someone up? How do you even begin to explore this? I presume on your own first, like, anything new, but any insights. I think this would be super interesting to anyone with testicles. Sure. Yeah. So everyone has encrypted canals. They’re located just below the pubic bone. And basically, if you’re playing with your testicles a little bit and you might see that they kind of retreat up, that’s the anguana canal. And so you can follow that up. It’s a process that has the name imagination. And if you’re someone with testicles, you’ve likely already been muffed, likely by a doctor, as part of a hernia exam, because the clinical term is you’re palpating the inquuinal canal, painting the testicles, imagining the testicles. So, like, how do you get it ready? Well, gloves and lube work really well. I also find, like, as with anything, like, for example, with anal sex, it’s so to relax the sphincter, relaxes both sphincters externally, and to just wake up the entire complex of that erotic system. And so with muffin, it’s the same thing. If you’re aroused, you’re in a good place, you’re feeling comfortable, you’re going to be able to access the pleasure. It won’t feel like this is kind of weird. And basically, I would start with one finger, and either I say gloved, and if you have long nails and you’re doing the muffin, you just put a cotton ball over the nail and then put a glove over it. Lube up the finger that you want to use. The Enguino canal is not as stretchy as, say, the vaginal walls or the anus, but certainly the mouth. But it does give a little bit and it can take a little bit of trial and error. But ultimately, if you are following it up, you can access it and just kind of see, like, maybe you want to add some vibration to it. And often it’s so close to the surface that you can kind of see the finger that is penetrating you. And so you have two of them. Sometimes I can only access one of them, unfortunately, but that’s just my physiology right now, but it feels really freaking good. So you have two it’s on either side of the ball, sort of between the testicle and the thigh. So it’s where the sac is of the testicle.
It’s over it okay. It’s located over the inquiry of canal. So you’re basically pushing the testicle back up into the anguinal canal, sort of like when I don’t know, when there’s shrinkage, as it were. Like, you get into some cold water and testicles just, like, retreat up. So your finger is not on either side of the ball. It’s actually pushing the ball up. Yes. Okay. Brendan, I can see your. So you just had a prostate exam last week, right? I had a physical and I did have a prostate exam. But you didn’t have an exam of the anguana canals? No. Have you ever. I’ve had the hernia test done before. What is it? I thought it was the cough test. Right. With the finger up your butt? No, there’s no finger in the butt. I assumed a whole lot of finger in your butt. No, the whole time there’s not a finger in my butt. But I’ve had the hernia test them. But I do know what Dr Fielding is making a reference to. Just because from what if I understand it correctly, when we’ve had sex, it’s like the retraction of your ball balls up into. Almost like, I don’t want to say into your body, but they kind of retract up a bit. So if that’s in reference to the inguino canal, then I know where it is. I’ve never thought about exploring it. That’s the truth. And you do have some pain sometimes. Like where you said you feel like the ball is retracted into your body and it’s been painful. I remember that, yeah. No, I have. So for me, even just listening to it, I agree I would have to be relaxed, I’d have to be slow baby steps. But I think for me, it’s just the idea that this isn’t something that I would have ever explored before. And again, going back to what Dr Fielding is saying, I think about sex. I have thought about sex as a very narrow. It’s been a very narrow framework of what I think sex is. And you’ve hit the nail on the head, which is you have to have a hard penis. And if you don’t have a hard penis and you’re not penetrating someone, then there’s a problem. And that’s how I was raised. And I’ll tell you, I have a hard time. I’ve had a hard time deconstructing what it means to have sex, because I immediately I get in my own head. I’m terrible at this. But if something is not working in that kind of, let’s call it normal penetrative sex, narrow way of sex, then I immediately go to something is wrong, and then something is wrong. And then all of a sudden it’s like, oh, my gosh, now there is a problem. And then that problem becomes, well, now I’m losing the feeling, the mood or whatever it is. Whereas all I have to do is be like, hey, man, this is cool. Tuning into the pleasure.
Let’s just focus in on something else. It’s not all about me. Do you know what I mean? Like, sex can be just me exploring another part of your body or seeing where it feels good in my own body. But I think I’ve just learned and I grew up thinking, this is sex. Anything else is, if something doesn’t work here, something’s wrong. Would you say that? Because you’ve been exposed to so many different types of sex now, and, like, you’ve seen people having sex and different types of sex and different types of bodies. Has that been helpful, like, the exposure itself to help chip away at those ingrained ideas? Yeah, it certainly has helped chip away at them. But again, I think in the moment, I revert back to that one. And again, I know I have to work on this, but it’s just where I go, it’s just I immediately think, okay, well, if this isn’t happening, then something is wrong. So it does take some work and effort to just think about things differently and also to be okay with it not always being exactly the same, exactly what you think it needs to be sometimes. Like, we had sex the other day and it wasn’t penetrative, thank God. Thank you for me, but it was fantastic. You know what I mean? It was great. It was fine for me. It was great. It doesn’t have to be a ten all the time. That was a ten for me. So let’s talk about that. Gendered prescriptions are so ingrained that even people who do the work and want to defy the norms have to constantly assert ourselves, remind ourselves, reassure ourselves. So how do we even begin to chip away at these layers of prescription by age, by body, by gender, by sexual orientation, by race, by religion? How do we dig down and actually figure out what we want and what we desire? Because most of us have never taken the time to figure that out. Like, we have it prescribed to us based on these layers of identity. Where do we even begin? Are there questions we can ask ourselves? Are there exercises we can do? Great question. I think one of them, if you’re wanting to deconstruct these scripts, these prescriptions, one tool is to ask, where did I it’s kind of the questions that you were asking about pleasure in the Intimate Justice chapter. When did I first learn about X, about masculinity, for example, or pleasure or sex? What messages have I picked up from where these kinds of things. And it’s kind of like, what the politics of desirability massive work being undertaken by primarily Billpak Fat fence who are really talking about the ways that we tend to see attraction as very subjective and idiosyncratic, and in fact, it’s very conditioned by the cultures in which we move. And so by taking a look at that and being like, oh, God, I keep swiping right on the same type of person, same body shape, the same shades of color kinds of things, then the same gender, then we can examine, like, okay, is this what I want to be participating in? Are there other ways? Like, I think a lot of people come to therapy or to sex education or to working with sex workers around this question of, like, there’s a sense of, like, there’s something else that is possible. I don’t know what it is, but I may need some support in kind of like in teasing it out.
But I know that there’s something that’s not fitting. The next little piece, the next piece after kind of that deconstructive process is to play, to experiment, start solo if that feels better. Most of the things that you can enjoy with a partner, you can enjoy with yourself, and so settle in for what colleague Alison Moon in Girl Sex 101 calls a due date with yourself. The other thing is thinking about our parts differently. The sexological body worker Betty Martin talks about hands, for example. Right. So she talks about how we so often think about hands as, like, we grasp things with hands or we give things with hands, but our hands have the most nerve endings along with our lips and our genitals in any other parts of our bodies. And so there’s a lot of pleasure that can be experienced through our hands. So think about the energies and intentions that you’re bringing to your body into your partner’s body. So, for example, if I’m thinking about, like, I love to go down with my partners, it’s one of my favorite things in the world to do. And I can approach that from a place of, like, I am giving my partner pleasure, and so that can be part of my pleasure. But another way that I can think of it is like, I just love this whole sensual experience of going down on a partner. Whatever parts they have, it’s like there’s all sorts of yummy smells and sounds and flavors and textures. All of that opens up for me as intensely pleasurable. And so if I’m bringing in an intention of I am going down on a partner. Yes. For their pleasure. But who is it for? It’s for me, because I just fucking love going down on a partner. Right. That reframing of giving and taking is so interesting. So the hands really make me think about we always think about hands kind of giving pleasure, but we don’t have the practice at hands receiving pleasure. In one of my courses that we do in mindful sex with, I don’t know if you know Dr. Reese Malone. Yeah. We have a project together to me is so important because we’re both Asian, and this mindfulness and meditative approaches really come from the east and have been taken and repackaged by the west. So to put this together with Reese was really cool. But one of the exercises is just that hand caress exercise and activity where you sit there and receive pleasure. And so many clients are like, I can’t get through that. I can’t just sit there and receive pleasure and imagine if you can’t sit there and receive pleasure in your hands, which is a much lower intensity body part for many people. How do we work up to these other areas? But the next step for me is that the hands are so incredibly erotic when you stimulate the hands. And for me and so many of my clients, also the face, because the face doesn’t get that attention in an erotic way. When you do that, the power of pleasure, and if you do eventually get to orgasm resonating and reverberating throughout the body and into your fingertips is so incredibly powerful. So I think that what you’re talking about.
Obviously, your work and Transsex in your book is essential reading for anybody who’s doing clinical or educational work in this field of sexuality. And it’s also really relevant to everybody, for CIS people, for trans people, for gender nonconforming people, for non binary people, for straight people, for all sorts of people to learn. And this is what we see, that when you are not the other, when you are the mainstream and you’re taught that kind of everything is for you, that’s actually great because you shouldn’t feel badly about that privilege. Everybody needs that privilege. That needs to not be privileged. It needs to be the norm. But there’s something oftentimes to be learned from communities who are othered, because wherever you’re otherwise you’ve had to do work to feel any deserving or a sense of entitlement to pleasure. Of course, not entitlement to other people giving you pleasure, but entitlement to embodying pleasure in your body. And so that process, I think, as Brandon said, becomes relevant to everyone. Like for a CIS white hetero guy, for a guy who’s got all the privilege in the world. Yeah. I mean, there’s still so much for you to take away from this. If you keep an open mind and don’t think like, oh, this is just for trans people or this is just for queer people or this is just for clinicians. I think there’s something really for everyone here. And I like the way you talk about first deconstructing these sexual messages to really understand the sources playing and experimenting. And that could be absolutely anything that could be like making your genitals off limits and looking at what pleasure you can derive from your body that could be trying a new toy that could be doing exactly the same way you always do, but just adding one little addition. Right. Like, we’re not telling people you have to go do it all. And then you bring up body parts. And really to me, that’s about full body pleasure and the capacity of pleasure. And when I think about embodiment, that’s really what for me personally, I think of and that doesn’t mean that that’s everybody else’s definitions. But I find that really helpful. We are really running out of time. But there’s one last thing I want to ask you, a totally different concept that came up in your book, and that is ethical curiosity. And I think this is so important for folks who are not others. And there’s a spectrum. We all kind of fall. There are areas where we are the mainstream and there are areas where we aren’t. And I think it’s so important you’re talking about it from a clinical perspective and therapists showing ethical curiosity as opposed to collecting information and getting kind of excited to learn from a client. But I’d really like to you to sum up what that is and why it’s important for everybody, certainly why it’s important for clinicians to ask themselves, am I being ethically curious? Am I treating the client in front of me, or am I just trying to do my own learning in the session, but also for people who are partners of people who are unlike them and maybe want to do some learning? How do we approach curiosity, which is so important and beautiful, but how do we do so ethically?
Yeah. So ethical curiosity comes about because of that experience of being offered and the kind of the questions that you invariably get. And it’s because we typically think of curiosity as just this, like virtue universal. Oh, it’s good to be curious and it is good to be curious, but it’s also important to recognize what is the impact of my curiosity on the object of that curiosity. So how is my curiosity being felt by someone and experienced? I think that, yes, Transsex is talking about how do providers be less shitty around this. But I think that there’s so much I talk about my relationship with family members and how sometimes the closer people are to you, the more they seem to be entitled to know something about you or the ways that whenever transfigures in media or anyone from a nondominant or a marginalized group here in the media, there’s always this, like, well, educate us about you and about your entire community. Speak for your entire community. That monolith of trans people. Yeah. Explain this to me. Prove this to me. Ethical curiosity is just about taking a step back, being intentional. It’s thinking about context. Like, of course, if I’m about to hook up with somebody, that is a really good time for us to be talking about whether we want genital contact and what we call our genitals and how we want to have sex outside of that context. That’s not a good time to be asking me, like, how I have sex with my partners. Right. And about your genitals and about your process and about your transitioning. Those are not questions that I receive as a CIS person. Right. Nobody’s asking me. So what are your labia like? What do you call it? I mean, other than in a learning space. Right.
Sometimes, for example, in a workshop, we might talk about what our parents call what we were taught about our genitals. But no one is asking me in an interview. No one is asking me at a cocktail party and crossing those lines. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that. In your book and trans texts, you address ethical curiosity. You address the idea that why are you asking yourself why am I asking this question? Right. And thinking about that. What is this for? Absolutely. Is this for me and my learning? And can I learn someplace else? And I ought to learn someplace else, especially if I’m a clinician. Definitely if I’m an ally. Definitely if I’m a lover. Definitely if this person is in my family. And so that’s where I think your book comes in. So once again, Lucy Fieldings trans Sex clinical approaches to trans sexualities and erotic embodiments. It’s got a little bit of everything. So the theory, the research, the data, the case studies. But then specific exercises, specific clinical approaches that you can use to support trans clients beyond these narratives of trauma, beyond oppression, beyond genitals, beyond sexual loss, beyond the nitty gritty of sex by getting into that full erotic embodiment. So really appreciate your time today. Appreciate your work. Hope that everybody does. Check out trans sex by Lucy Fielding, published by Rootlage. And we’ll have our fingers crossed for you for the land literary awards Because you’re a finalist now. But we’ll find out very shortly if you are a winner and I sure do hope you are so Congrats on all the success and thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun and have an embrace pleasure and the polymorphous perverseity of your bodies. Polymorphously perverse playgrounds and wonder. Oh, my goodness so much. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you for listening. If you are in the market for fun toys for all bodies, everything from the vanilla to the kinky and all that jazz in between, check out AdamandEve.com. They are still offering 50% off plus free shipping and a bunch of little free goodies with code, Dr. Jess. And they carry everything from vibrators to nipple clamps to latex wear to butt plugs to sex furniture to things that you inflate or deflate or help you to inflate or deflate Adam and Eve.com code. Dr. Jess, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. And we will be back next week with a brand new episode. You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast. Improve your Sex Life. Improve Your life.